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US Department of State Daily Briefing #27:
Thursday, 2/20/92
Tutwiler
Source: State Department Spokesman Margaret Tutwiler
Description: Washington, DC
Date: Feb, 20 19922/20/92
Category: Briefings
Region: MidEast/North Africa, Subsaharan Africa, Caribbean,
Eurasia, Southeast Asia
Country: Israel, Lebanon, South Africa, Haiti, USSR (former),
Vietnam
Subject: Terrorism, Mideast Peace Process, Democratization,
POW/MIA Issues, Regional/Civil Unrest, United Nations,
Security Assistance and Sales, Cultural Exchange
12:04 P.M.
(ON THE RECORD UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED)
MS. TUTWILER: I have two questions you asked Richard
yesterday that we did not have answers to. I do have the
answers today.
[Announcement: Secretary's Meetings with Ambassador Shoval and
Faisal Husseini]
Secretary Baker will be meeting with Ambassador Shoval
tomorrow at 3:30 p.m. here at the State Department, and the
Secretary will be meeting today here at the State Department at
5:15 with Faisal Husseini.
Q Margaret --
MS. TUTWILER: Yes, Barry.
[Israel/Lebanon: US Urges Restraint by All Parties/Loan Guarantees
Status/Responsibility for the Deaths of Three Israeli Soldiers]
Q All that shooting in Lebanon. Does the State
Department have some observation about it?
MS. TUTWILER: Observation?
Q Remarks, comment? It's your -- I'm passing the
ball to you to --
MS. TUTWILER: Got it!
Q -- just kick it as far as you want.
MS. TUTWILER: We got it.
Q It's a softball. The hard ones will follow.
MS. TUTWILER: We are deeply concerned about the
renewed cycle of violence in southern Lebanon. We have made
high-level demarches to those involved to urge the exercise of
maximum restraint in order to bring the violence to an end. We
have made those demarches to Israeli officials, Syrian officials
and Lebanese officials.
It is my understanding -- which is one question you may
ask -- is this going to -- or have we been informed that anyone
has changed their plans on coming here for peace talks
on Monday. Quite the opposite. Everyone has told us this
morning that they are indeed coming to the third round of talks
beginning here on Monday, February 24.
Q What do the Syrians have to do with it?
MS. TUTWILER: Well, as you know, the Syrians have very
close relations with the Lebanese, and it makes perfect sense to
me that when we are making our views known about the violence
that is escalating there, that it's perfectly natural that you
would also raise your concerns with the Syrian Government.
Q Have they been physically involved so far?
MS. TUTWILER: No. Not that I know of. Some of our
information this morning that is coming in on this incident
we're still getting. Some of it is still confused. We are,
after all, a long way away, and we are trying to get it. So I
don't have a lot of literal specifics of what went on there.
But I have no evidence as of this briefing of that.
Q Who would you expect to intercede with Hizballah?
MS. TUTWILER: To intercede with them?
Q Well, I mean, you say -- I mean, you know, they're
not a government. They're very much involved in the fighting.
I presume that you would like them to show some restraint as
well?
MS. TUTWILER: Well, of course.
Q Well, how do you get your message to them?
MS. TUTWILER: I think the message doesn't need to be
gotten to them. I think the message is well known. It's been a
constant, steady message for years that you're well aware of,
and we have been very vocal from this podium. Other governments
are being very vocal about it.
As you know, the U.N. Security Council yesterday passed
a resolution prior to this incident this morning. Everyone that
I'm aware of is calling for a cessation of this increase in
violence.
Q And that's definitely your overriding theme, but
let me ask you on a sub-theme here. Does the State Department
have a position as to whether Israel is justified in carrying
out reprisals for attacks on Israeli villages, or do you have
some other suggestion like "take it to the U.N.," or something?
Israel is retaliating.
MS. TUTWILER: I understand that.
Q Is that a justifiable action?
MS. TUTWILER: I don't want to condone any violence,
Barry, no matter by whom. Innocent people get caught in
crossfires. What we are urging all parties to do is to please
do what they can to have this escalation, this violence, this
cycle, stopped.
Q But can you tell us whether -- does the U.S.
Government believe that the Israeli action is an act of
self-defense, or it is other than an act of self-defense, like
aggression or whatever it's between.
MS. TUTWILER: That gets me a little bit back into what
Barry was asking me -- either condoning or condemning. I am
condemning the violence by all. As I said, we have only got
fresh reports this morning, and all of our reports are not in.
I would point to the Israeli Government itself -- it is my
understanding -- has said that this was a small armored element
that went after an alleged Katyusha launching site.
The Israeli Government, it is my understanding, has
said this activity is limited, both in terms of space and time.
It is also my understanding that the Israeli Government has said
that they intend for this operation to last about 24 hours.
Q Have they told you, going by their public
statements, or have they also told the U.S. Government such?
MS. TUTWILER: Their public statements do not
contradict what they have told us in private.
Q Margaret, let me push this reprisal thing. I
mean, this is not taking sides. I'm asking the United States --
U.S. State Department -- you recently, this government, has been
involved in some very violent activity in Iraq, for instance,
and innocent people were killed there as well.
MS. TUTWILER: That's right.
Q Sometimes people take up arms. Without arguing
the case either way, does the State Department see any
justification for Israel responding? Is your position they have
overreacted, or do you think they should have simply not carried
out any activity in Lebanon?
MS. TUTWILER: I'm not going to characterize that for
you, other than to continue to say that we are deeply concerned
about the escalation of what appears to be rising violence. I
am not going to make a judgment on if this was justified,
non-justified. You know very well, as we do, there have been
rockets that have been launched onto Israeli soil off of
Lebanese soil.
I'm not going to, you know, make any judgment on that
either. We're making a judgment on the overall situation there,
and we are, as the United Nations, as I have seen other nations
this morning, calling for restraint on everyone.
Q Margaret, is it your feeling that incidents like
this poison the waters of the peace talks?
MS. TUTWILER: I will only state that, having rechecked
this morning, all parties have told us this morning that they
will be here on Monday for the opening of the third round of the
talks.
Q I know. But do incidents like this make it more
difficult to reach any sort of agreement or to have any sort of
comity at these talks?
MS. TUTWILER: I can't prejudge for you, John, what
instructions these representatives of their governments are
coming with. I don't know how it is influencing the
governmental decisions of the various entities that are going to
be here. I would be being totally speculative for you.
Obviously, any increase in violence in this very
difficult situation, you couldn't characterize as helpful. But
I think that it is worth noting that as of this morning they
have all said they will be here on Monday for this third round.
Q Margaret, the other day your office put out a
statement --
MS. TUTWILER: Excuse me. So that would lead me to
believe that they are very serious -- the representatives that
are coming here and their governments -- about continuing these
peace talks.
Q Margaret, you say that the Department is deeply
concerned about this escalating violence. The other day your
office put out statements saying that the U.S. Government is
seriously concerned about the use of American-supplied weapons
by Israel in Lebanon.
Do you take the further -- and you say you've raised
this recently with Israel. Has it reached a point where you are
going to express that concern by anything concrete?
MS. TUTWILER: As you correctly point out, we put out a
statement of United States law the other day which concerns not
only Israeli use of American equipment, but it's my
understanding of all countries where we sell equipment.
I can tell you that as of today that, yes, we are
discussing the matter with the Israelis, and that, as you know,
under law should it be shown that it was not used as the law
intended, then of course we would have to legally notify
Congress. But by no stretch of the imagination are we to that
point. We are simply doing what our law requires that we do,
and it is nothing more than that at this point.
Q And how would you --
MS. TUTWILER: Excuse me. Can I also remind you that
under the law -- which you, yourself, said you've just read --
that the U.S. defense articles furnished to Israel under the
Foreign Military Sales Program are governed by the Arms Export
Control Act under which Israel is required to use such articles
solely for internal security and for legitimate self-defense.
Q So that's why it's very important --
Q [Inaudible]
MS. TUTWILER: Sure. There are other reasons.
Q It's a legal question. Therefore, it's important
that you may be required to answer to Congress, if American
weapons were used, whether this action was legal self-defense or
otherwise.
MS. TUTWILER: This is not something that you should be
led to ratchet up at all. This is, as you know, a question that
has been debated for any number of years: "What is a terrorist
act?" "What is self-defense?" etc., etc. We are not -- not --
at that point at all. But at the same moment, under our law I
would be irresponsible [not] to tell you that these types of
things are, for lack of a better word, routinely raised as they
should be under our law. But this is not something there's been
a high-level demarche on, etc., etc.
Q Margaret --
MS. TUTWILER: Yes, Mark.
Q Does the United States have any particular concern
about Israeli forces moving outside their security zone in
southern Lebanon?
MS. TUTWILER: It's my understanding that they had
moved one mile outside of their security zone, and my
understanding is that it was a small Israeli armored element
that went after an alleged Katyusha launching site.
Q And do you have any particular concern about that?
MS. TUTWILER: I have a general concern over -- a deep
concern over the violence.
Q Margaret, does it concern you that they went
across U.N. forces also in the process of doing that?
MS. TUTWILER: That still is a little confused, and I
cannot tell you with any total certainty exactly what has taken
place there. We know that two UNIFIL soldiers were hurt. We do
not know, and I cannot tell you at this briefing, if they were
from IDF forces or there were other elements that got into this
confrontation -- if it was the other elements that wounded these
two gentlemen. We simply aren't in a position here to tell you,
other than we know two were wounded. It got very confused, and
we just don't have all the facts yet.
Q [Inaudible] -- said this has happened. This
situation is hardly unique. There have been other constructions
from this podium over the years. I just want to try one more
time. I hope I'm not belaboring the point.
A construction has been Israel has a right to defend
itself, and Israel has a right, as any nation does, to engage in
hot pursuit in defense of itself. But its response was too
much. It should have been restrained.
You're not saying that, are you? You're not asserting
that Israel has a right to go into Lebanon to retaliate for
being attacked -- for Israeli villages being attacked. You're
simply saying, "Let's be restrained about all this."
MS. TUTWILER: I'm not denying that any country has the
right, when attacked, to defend themselves. That's not -- what
I'm not doing. What I am not engaging on, which I thought you
were trying to get me to at first, was to make a judgment from
this podium of the justification for what was done. I'm not in
a position to do that today.
Q Indeed. I was just asking you if you thought
Israel is justified, and you haven't said either way.
MS. TUTWILER: I haven't said either way, because I've
also said about four times this happened this morning -- our
morning D.C. time. We are still trying to get in all of our
information, our cables, talk to people exactly. I couldn't
answer this gentleman's question about who exactly wounded --
whose fire wounded the two UNIFIL people. So we're trying to
get all the information ourselves.
But I am continuously saying -- as the United Nations
Security Council* said yesterday -- that we are deeply concerned
about what appears to be escalation in southern Lebanon, in
Israel, over the last several days.
Q Has the State Department made a judgment -- have
any evidence yet as to who killed these three Israeli soldiers
on Saturday? The initial Israeli report -- I don't know if it's
been changed -- was they attributed it to Fatah, to the PLO. It
has nothing to do with Hizballah which is being hammered.
* U.N. Security Council Presidential Statement
MS. TUTWILER: I saw that.
Q Has the State Department looked into this, and has
it come up with any conclusions?
MS. TUTWILER: If they've come up with a conclusion,
Barry, I didn't focus on that this morning. I don't know. I'll
be happy to ask for you if we have a conclusion. I don't know.
Q There are two points here. I came in late, and
I'm sorry if you've already spoken about it.
MS. TUTWILER: That's no problem.
Q Have the U.N. forces done anything to halt the
firing of these rockets into northern Israel, and has the
Lebanese army done anything about it? Has either party made any
statement that this should stop? What have you got on that?
MS. TUTWILER: I don't know, sir, that the United
Nations has made a statement today. They made a statement prior
to this incident yesterday -- the Security Council* did. It is
my understanding as of this briefing there has not been a call
yet for a Security Council meeting on this incident, so I'm just
not aware that they have. But maybe the U.N. office in New York
could maybe tell you if they have. I just don't know.
Q I'm not talking about what the U.N. may say in New
York. What I'm saying is whether the U.N. forces on the ground
in Lebanon has done anything to enforce the peace and prevent
the firing of rockets into northern Israel? And has the
Lebanese Government done anything to halt this business?
MS. TUTWILER: I'm not sure that I'm in a position here
to answer for the United Nations forces on the ground in Lebanon
and what they may or may not be doing to ensure the peace there.
I believe they've been there since 1978. I think the Secretary
General's office at the U.N. would be the best to answer that.
Q Well, what about the Lebanese --
MS. TUTWILER: Concerning the Lebanese, the Lebanese,
as you know -- President Harawi's government over the last many
months has been, to the best of their ability, as you know,
kicking out militias; have been trying to do a lot to get
control of people who have been doing violent types of
activities there on their soil.
So I think that's all public knowledge, what they have
been trying to do.
* U.N. Security Council Presidential Statement
Q In connection with all of this, there is a report
to the effect that the State Department is trying to provide
$400,000 for the training of some 37 Lebanese officers in the
United States. That would be tantamount, I suppose, to training
Syrian army officers. But what information do you have on that?
MS. TUTWILER: I've never heard of that, and I'll be
happy to look into it for you. I'm not familiar with it.
Q Do you have any information on an incident this
morning at the Jordanian border in which four members of the
[Palestinian] group -- apparently not members of the delegation
-- were turned back by the Israelis?
MS. TUTWILER: Correct. My understanding is that it's
all been resolved. The four members -- I believe the entire
delegation is 70-something-plus people -- were going to Amman,
not coming here. My understanding is the whole thing is
resolved. Those four individuals, I believe, went with Sari
Nusseibeh back to their homes. I can't promise they're back at
their homes, but it's all over.
Q Do we have a view of the fact that this happened?
MS. TUTWILER: I don't yet because I don't know. We
were made aware of the incident this morning, and then we were
shortly thereafter made aware that it had been resolved and
that's all I really know about it.
Q Margaret, when you say "resolved," do you mean
that they were allowed to leave or not?
MS. TUTWILER: They resolved it in that the four that
had been seeking -- it's my limited understanding -- to go onto
Amman decided not to go onto Amman. Hanan [Ashrawi] and the
delegation went onto Amman and crossed the bridge.
Q Will Secretary Baker be raising the issue of the
violence in Lebanon at his meeting tomorrow with Ambassador
Shoval?
MS. TUTWILER: I don't know. The purpose of the
meeting, as you know, is a continuation of their discussions on
the $10 billion housing loan guarantees. I don't know.
Q Could you preview a little bit, if you want, what
his message to Faisal Husseini might be?
MS. TUTWILER: No. I think that would be really
irresponsible of me --
Q Gee, I could almost do it.
MS. TUTWILER: -- to do in advance of his meeting this
afternoon with him.
Q You must have some idea of what you want of the
Palestinians at this point so far as the peace talks?
MS. TUTWILER: Mr. Husseini requested -- I believe it
was -- when did we get back here? -- Tuesday night around
midnight through Ambassador Ross, could he come to Washington
and see Secretary Baker. As you know, the Secretary has met
with him numerous times, and the Secretary, obviously, sent back
the message that, yes, he would, and we've scheduled it. So I
really -- I don't want to preview it here.
Q Margaret, on the loan guarantee, has the
Department seen the GAO report on the functioning of the earlier
$400 million housing loan guarantee which says, in essence, that
the State Department has no positive control over whether these
funds, in fact, were either directly or indirectly used in the
occupied territories.
MS. TUTWILER: I checked on that this morning. The
answer is that, no, we have not received the report yet. When
we do receive the report, we will obviously be reviewing it
carefully. I've seen what Senator Byrd said, who apparently has
seen the report. We just don't have it yet at the building.
Q Without regard to the GAO report, does the State
Department feel it has sufficient control over the use of those
funds to guarantee that, in fact, they are not used to support
new settlements in the occupied territories?
MS. TUTWILER: It's something I haven't looked into in
months concerning the $400 million housing loan guarantee that
was -- what? -- about a year old now. It's just something I
haven't looked into. I'd be happy to ask.
As I said, we have not received this report. When we
do receive it, we'll be reviewing it carefully. I literally
have not looked into it.
Q Margaret, in connection with that report, there
was a press report to the effect that State Department officers
refused to discuss this matter with the GAO people. Do you have
anything on that?
Has the State Department contributed anything to the
Congressional Service report?
MS. TUTWILER: I don't know, sir. I don't know what
our legal obligations are. I don't know if we were asked. I
don't know if we said we wouldn't. I know nothing about it.
Q Can we find out before the Secretary testifies on
Monday and Tuesday?
MS. TUTWILER: I'll try. It should be easy to get an
answer to.
[South Africa: DeKlerk Preoposes Referendum on CODESA/
US Support for CODESA Process ]
Q Margaret, do you have anything on President de
Klerk's decision to hold a referendum for whites only to vote on
the apartheid policy as a result of his loss in the special
election --
MS. TUTWILER: Not a lot. We continue to support fully
the Convention for a Democratic South Africa process as the
appropriate forum for discussions on South Africa's future. The
specifics of the transition to a new constitution are for the
people of South Africa to decide among themselves.
Q Can you go beyond that, please, or look into it
because what he did today was very dramatic?
MS. TUTWILER: I understand that. The view of the
State Department on the specific thing of calling for a
referendum is that it's an internal matter, and so our comment
-- I can't go beyond -- I asked the very questions that I
anticipated you might be asking me. It gets us right into
getting into an internal matter.
Q Aren't you concerned that this may slow the
progress toward an integrated society in South Africa?
MS. TUTWILER: I would think that it would be premature
for me to make that type of judgment for you. This is
something, as Connie accurately says, "dramatic" that he has
called for. We are supporting the Convention for a Democratic
South Africa; but the specifics, I have to leave to the South
African people.
Q And you're not afraid that he might have lost
touch with his white constituents ?
MS. TUTWILER: I'm not going to speculate like that
with you. We recognize it was a dramatic thing that he did, and
we are supporting the process.
Q Just two others. On the vote itself yesterday,
will you comment on that?
MS. TUTWILER: No.
Q And this arms [inaudible] sale?
MS. TUTWILER: The what?
Q It says the U.S. Embassy denied a report that
Washington blocked a South African sale to Saudi Arabia. Do you
have anything to go beyond that?
MS. TUTWILER: No.
Q The Haiti question: There are apparently more
than 200 Haitian refugees who may be eligible for asylum who
have HIV positive. Has the U.S. decided what it's going to do
with them yet?
MS. TUTWILER: It's my understanding they have not. As
you know, there are -- I believe the correct term is "laws" that
exist prior to this incident concerning immigration into our
country. If you are HIV positive, it requires a waiver from our
government.
As I recall, maybe two years ago there was a
conference, as I remember, I think, in Minnesota, and we did,
indeed, as I recall, waive some individuals to come in here.
It is true that the INS has a number of Haitians who
have been found to have a plausible claim to asylum, and they
also have tested HIV positive.
The INS has not made a determination yet concerning
their disposition.
Q Does the fact that they are seeking political
asylum make them any different from someone who is just simply
seeking entry into the United States? Is that a factor?
MS. TUTWILER: To be honest with you, I am not that
familiar with INS rules and regulations. They would probably be
the best person to answer that type of detailed question. I
don't know.
Q Who granted the waiver? Is that a Secretary of
State function?
MS. TUTWILER: I don't think so. (TO STAFF) Is it INS?
The Attorney General is what Richard (Boucher) thinks. We'll
have to check the record for you.
Q Margaret, can you tell us anything about the next
Baker-Kozyrev meeting?
MS. TUTWILER: Anything about it? What do you mean?
Q Is it scheduled yet? Baker said the first or
second week in March.
MS. TUTWILER: That's still where we are.
Q No date yet? Is it not at the NAC in Brussels?
MS. TUTWILER: Has that been publicly announced by the
headquarters in Brussels? To my knowledge, it hasn't.
Q I heard it on the radio yesterday. (Laughter)
MS. TUTWILER: From a reliable source?
Q It seems to be general knowledge in the halls of
this building, and I just wondered if --
MS. TUTWILER: It does. But usually how we do things,
out of diplomatic courtesy, is to let the sponsoring
organization make their own announcements.
Should such a meeting be announced by the sponsoring
organization, yes, the Secretary has already told you that he
would then envision seeing the Foreign Minister around the
fringes of that meeting.
Q Is the Department aware of a statement this
morning, apparently by Foreign Secretary Hurd, on Iraq?
MS. TUTWILER: I'm not. Someone in the Department may
be, but I'm not familiar with it.
Q So you don't have any comment on it?
MS. TUTWILER: No.
Q Margaret, yesterday, Richard didn't have a comment
on Leonid Kravchuk's comments in the Ukraine that the White
House should be meeting not just with Russia but with the other
three nuclear powers as well. Do you, today?
MS. TUTWILER: We put that out yesterday afternoon,
Johanna, and I don't have anything additional to add to that.
Q Margaret, could I go back to the situation in
Lebanon, and the situation surrounding it?
MS. TUTWILER: Yes.
Q I understand that you addressed this yesterday,
but I was on my way back from Moscow.
MS. TUTWILER: I didn't. Richard did.
Q How concerned are you about the taking of hostages
as retaliation for what has happened, or other acts of
terrorism?
MS. TUTWILER: I really don't have anything to add to
the statement that the State Department made yesterday. Richard
made it.
We felt there was an obligation on our part to make a
public statement to make sure that people are sensitive to and
alert to.
There are statements that have come out from various
individuals claiming they're going to, I believe, take hostages
or an increase in violence. We have, in my opinion, a very
steady record in this Administration -- when we have something,
even when it's as vague as, for instance, you remember the times
we had someone in the Philippines. So that we do not ever have
another example of a double standard -- that government
employees are told something that the general public is not.
So it was nothing more than if we are telling our own
staff to be careful and on alert, we have an obligation to tell
the public, and that's what we did.
Q But you're really just saying, "Be careful"?
MS. TUTWILER: Right. We do not have a credible
(inaudible) specific thing.
Q Except for Lebanon, where you say, "Don't go
there, for God sake?"
MS. TUTWILER: Well, that's been --
Q Yeah, that's long standing. But it just says,
even though you sweep three continents, basically, you're
saying, "be careful"?
MS. TUTWILER: Correct. We're making people aware of
statements that have been made. And if you're doing it for your
own employees, there is no double standard; then you do have an
obligation to tell our public, and that's what we did.
Q Do you have any comment on a report yesterday by
Senators Smith and Kerry that Soviet forces in Vietnam may have
executed a downed U.S. flyer?
MS. TUTWILER: Not a lot. We have no independent
confirmation of this report, but we are looking into it. As you
may or may not know from reading the transcript, Secretary Baker
addressed -- not this specific instance, but addressed U.S.
POW/MIAs with President Yeltsin and Foreign Minister Kozyrev on
his most recent trip Monday and Tuesday while he was in Russia.
As you know, I believe Richard announced that there is
a General -- I apologize; I don't have his name in front of me
-- who has agreed to have some type of Russian-U.S. joint
commission to look into these types of things from World War II.
I know that Senator Kerry's statements, I believe,
concern Vietnam. But my overall knowledge of this is that the
Russian Government is being very cooperative with the American
Government on tracking down these allegations and making their
files and information available to us.
Q But specifically on this alleged execution of an
American pilot, would the State Department seek a war crimes
trial for any Soviet troop who could be identified as having
participated?
MS. TUTWILER: You're way ahead of the system there.
As I said, I have no independent confirmation of this, and that
we are looking into it.
Q Thank you.
MS. TUTWILER: Thank you all.
(Press briefing concluded at 12:32 p.m.)