US Department of State Daily Briefing #61,
Monday: 4/15/91
Tutwiler
Source: State Department Spokesman Margaret Tutwiler
Description: 12:27 PM, Washington, DC
Date: Apr 15, 19914/15/91
Category: Briefings
Region: MidEast/North Africa, Subsaharan Africa,
East Asia, Europe, Eurasia
Country: Iraq, Kuwait, USSR (former), Jordan, Iran,
Turkey, Cyprus, South Africa, Israel
Subject: Mideast Peace Process, Regional/Civil Unrest,
Development/Relief Aid, Refugees, EC,
POW/MIA Issues, Trade/Economics, Terrorism,
United Nations, State Department, Arms Control
(ON THE RECORD UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED)
MS. TUTWILER: What I'd like to do is make one
announcement and then give you, as we do everyday, the situation
overall in Iraq and a situation that's all encompassing, and
then you can ask your questions concerning displaced persons and
refugees, if that's OK.
[Announcement: Secretary's Travel to Luxembourg/Middle
East]
Secretary Baker reported to President Bush on his trip
over the weekend. The President and the Secretary are convinced
that all parties are taking a serious approach to peace in the
Middle East. The President and the Secretary believe that
follow-up now, directly with the parties is important if
progress is to be made.
Thus, the Secretary will be returning to the Middle
East this week.
While we believe all parties are serious, there is much
work to be done, many questions to be answered, and still a long
way to go.
Enroute to the area, the Secretary will meet with the
EC Ministers in Luxembourg on Wednesday evening. This is
something that had been discussed last week in President Bush's
meeting with President Santer and Chairman Delors. Secretary
Baker discussed this when we were in Geneva on Saturday. This
is consistent with our commitment under the EC declaration to
hold semi-annual Ministerial-level consultations. They will
also be discussing the Middle East and the current situation
with the refugees and displaced persons.
We will be leaving tomorrow; probably returning next
Tuesday or Wednesday. Our meetings in Israel will begin on
Friday morning. I am not in a position at this briefing to
announce all of our other stops. We're still in the process of
getting that worked out.
I would please strongly urge all of you to sign up, who
wish to travel, immediately after this briefing. The sign-up
sheet will come down at 2:00 p.m.
Q Why so long this time?
MS. TUTWILER: How much advance notice? On the
situation in Iraq --
Q Can we take a filing break on that?
MS. TUTWILER: On that?
Q We want to get the story out before we get there.
(Laughter)
[Iraq: Update on Fighting: Iraqi Troops and Rebels]
MS. TUTWILER: We still have no information to confirm
reports in the international media of recent Iraqi tank,
artillery, or helicopter gunship attacks on refugees in northern
Iraq. There was, however, some heavy ground fighting between
government forces and armed dissidents in the Sulaymaniya area
of northern Iraq over the weekend. We cannot confirm media
reports of fighting in southern Iraq over the past two days.
[Iraq: Refugee Update]
On the refugee situation, and I'd ask that you bear
with me but there are a number of different areas to cover on
this and we tried to get as much together for you as we could.
Iran:
According to international
organizations and Iranian officials, one million Iraqi refugees have
entered Iran and hundreds of thousands are at or moving toward the
border.
The International Committee of the Red Cross and the
United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees have been actively
involved in Iran since before the beginning of the refugee
influx. The United States and the international community are
providing assistance through U.N. and international relief
organizations. We are in touch with Iranian officials through
our protecting power, Switzerland, and we are considering ways
we may be of further assistance.
Turkey:
Nearly 400,000 Iraqis, mostly Kurds,
but including some other groups, have fled to Turkey and are
presently camped in the mountains near the Iraqi border.
Another 400,000 displaced civilians are reported to be across
the border in Iraq.
There have been some reports that we saw this morning
of shootings by Turkish military. We can neither confirm nor
deny the reports of alleged shooting of refugees or looting of
relief supplies. We are checking on these reports, and
obviously, we certainly hope that they are not correct.
On organization and distribution: In these early
stages of this massive relief effort, organization continues to
be a problem. However, we continue to work with the Government
of Turkey and international relief organizations to establish
effective and efficient means for delivering and distributing
relief supplies.
Relief organizations are now present at four of the
drop sites and are working to establish effective delivery
assistance.
UNHCR is working inside Turkey and is managing the
refugee camps on the Turkish territory.
There have also been reports this morning of the
Turkish government agreeing to move some refugees off of the
mountains. The Turkish government has announced plans to move
25,000 to 30,000 refugees currently located near the Turkish
border to Silopi in the near future. The United States will
provide assistance as required.
We continue to work with international organizations
and the Government of Turkey to develop methods to move
effectively to deliver assistance to the refugees. This
includes looking at ways to relocate the refugees to more easily
accessible locations.
On Sunday, April 14, 19 military relief supply missions
-- these are United States -- were flown. I'm sorry -- to break
down the 19, it's 11 U.S., 4 British, 4 French. These missions
delivered 176 tons of prepackaged meals, water, food stuffs --
milk, sugar, flour, salt, and tea -- tents, blankets, clothing,
ground sheets, sleeping bags, tarp rolls, and baby food.
Seven of yesterday's flights were helicopter flights
from Diyabakir -- which as you know, many of you were with us
there last week with Secretary Baker. There are 8 primary drop
zones: five in southern Turkey and three in northern Iraq. To
date, 152 military relief flights have air-dropped 1,029 tons of
relief supplies.
The military continues to expand its delivery
capabilities for the largest United States relief effort mounted
in modern military history. Total deployment in Turkey now is
nearly 8,300 people.
U.S. military personnel are providing a variety of
services to Operation Provide Comfort, including air and land
transportation, medical and engineering assistance, and water
purification.
[In Southern Iraq:]
An estimated 30,000 people are
currently being assisted in coalition-occupied southern Iraq.
In light of Iraqi acceptance of UNSC Resolution 687 and the
commencement of the deployment of the U.N. Observer Unit to the
demilitarized zone, coalition forces will begin withdrawing from
their current position in Iraq and start moving south to the
demilitarized zone established by the U.N. resolution.
Coalition forces will remain in the demilitarized zone
until the U.N. Observer Unit is in place and functioning along
the Iraq-Kuwait border. Until this occurs, coalition forces
will continue to protect and provide humanitarian assistance to
refugees in the demilitarized zone, to include the refugees in
Safwan.
If there are any other refugees in the formerly
occupied area desiring to move into the demilitarized zone, they
will be provided assistance and protection by coalition forces.
Refugees at the camp in Rafha, outside the
demilitarized zone, will remain under the care and protection of
the coalition forces until the refugees are moved to a more
suitable location.
As many of you all may know, there are a number of
officials that the Secretary met with in Geneva on Saturday who
are now in various capitals meeting with other governments
concerning this situation. If you want, I can give you a list
of their whereabouts later.
Can I do one more thing?
Q That was Friday.
MS. TUTWILER: Friday. I'm sorry.
Q Unless you went back on Saturday --
[Iraq: Death Rate on Turkish Border]
MS. TUTWILER: Sorry, I'm confused. Concerning the
death rate: The statistics we have are estimates from
international relief workers on the Turkish border. They
estimate that between 400 and 1,000 people there are dying every
day, mostly from preventable diseases. Supplies and medical
assistance are being moved in as fast as is humanly possible.
In addition to international relief workers, U.S.
military medical teams have been deployed to the Turkish border
to provide basic medical assistance.
That's it.
Q Would American military forces be involved in the
transportation of the refugees to more accessible locations?
MS. TUTWILER: I don't know, Mark. A lot of these
questions -- we did the best we could of pulling this all
together for you this morning. The Pentagon will do a briefing
and they will be in a better position to answer detailed
questions like that. I just am not in a position to.
Q On southern Iraq --
MS. TUTWILER: Southern?
Q Yes. The 30,000 people that are in the occupied
territory now, you seem to beg the question, what happens to
them in a longer term kind of situation. You're saying if they
want to, they can move into the 6-kilometer demilitarized zone.
But eventually our forces will move out of that as well, leaving
only United Nations forces. It will be up to the host nation to
decide what happens to those people; is that not correct?
MS. TUTWILER: Secretary Cheney did a very lengthy
interview yesterday -- I cannot remember on what American
network -- giving a lot of details concerning this. But our
basic -- and I do not know all the details of it -- our basic
policy was enunicated by him yesterday; by me again today.
These people are not being left by our military there. We are
moving them. We are going to continue to take care of them as
we have throughout.
I would also refer you to testimony this morning.
Princeton Lyman, who is the Director for the State Department of
all refugees, testified in open testimony this morning for well
over an hour and has a very detailed opening statement, that
we'll make available to you in the Press Room afterwards, which
has an enormous amount of detail in it.
Q Margaret, do you have any indication that the Blue
Helmet Forces that will replace the coalition in the
demilitarized zone would be equipped or ready to engage in
combat if it's necessary to protect the refugees?
MS. TUTWILER: I don't know, Norm, if they are equipped
or ready to engage in combat. Have you answered this, Richard
(Boucher)? I know that the United States, as a Perm Five
member, as the others routinely, and in this case, it's my
understanding, will have approximately 20 observers there. I
believe the entire force that has been announced is around
1,400, as I remember. But whether they are actually armed, is I
believe what you're asking me, I don't know, Norm.
Q I'm just asking if they'd be prepared to fight.
Because, normally, U.N. forces don't if it comes to that. As
long as nobody challenges them, they work fine.
MS. TUTWILER: I don't know if the United Nations has
addressed themselves to this question in the mandate. I'll just
have to check for you. I just don't know.
Q Margaret, on the Mideast peace issue --
Q Could we stay on refugees for a couple more? The
question of those being brought off the mountain, a lot of us
that were up there believe that it would be easier to look after
these people if they were brought off the mountain, in
terms of getting them out of the cold and getting them to a
place with more accessible communications. Has the United
States asked Turkey to accelerate this process?
MS. TUTWILER: I think not only the United States is
seeking to move as fast as we all can move, I think the Turkish
government is, as witnessed by what they've said today -- 25,000
to 30,000. You were with us and you physically saw -- I believe
it was close to a 2-hour helicopter ride we had to take from the
closest airport through that very, very treacherous mountainous
terrain.
I do not know, Alan, what the various members of the
international organizations will come up with. There are
various proposals that are now being discussed. The most
immediate problem for the world, that the world is reacting to,
is to somehow get shelter, get food, get medicine to these
people even up in this incredible terrain. So I don't know if
they will come up with, in the next 24 hours or 12 hours, the
plan that says it is wiser to move them to a plateau in Iraq or
to move them down into Turkey. These are all conversations that
are on-going out on the ground there on the situation.
Q Can you also clarify what it is exactly that the
Iraqis have been told not to do north of the 36th parallel?
MS. TUTWILER: I would ask Richard, who was here last
week and did the exact specific guidance. But I believe it's
all clearly out on the record. He addressed himself to it
almost everyday last week as did Marlin. My understanding is --
nothing to prevent the humanitarian relief agencies and efforts
north of the 36th parallel.
As Marlin reiterated this morning -- he briefed around
10:30, I believe, and I am aware that the United States
Government has met with Iraqi officials twice, I believe it was
a week ago Saturday and then last Wednesday -- you could
characterize those, if you wish, as Marlin did this morning, as
warnings.
Q Margaret, you mentioned this high rate of death
from preventable diseases. Has the problem of starvation
largely been overcome, and we're dealing largely now with the
problem of disease? Or is there still a problem with the food?
MS. TUTWILER: I couldn't say that any one of the
problems that these innocent people are facing have been
overcome. Obviously each day that goes by, the international
community, the international organizations, are making more
progress. You have seen yourself, I assume this morning, any
number of reports of the efforts of our military, of the
British, of the French. So I do believe that some relief is
being given to these people.
But, obviously, when you're dealing with the magnitude,
as Princeton Lyman testified this morning, I think overall now
we're dealing with over 1.4 million individuals, that is a
massive amount of people, especially when it's compounded by
this very, very treacherous terrain that these people are in.
Q But are we focusing now, because of the increased
deaths, on providing more medical assistance? Is that the
particularly urgent need right now?
MS. TUTWILER: We're focusing on saving lives. That
includes getting shelter, it includes getting food, it includes
medicine. I would say it includes everything that we can
possibly do to move and get going to save lives.
Q But there's no recent shift of emphasis --
MS. TUTWILER: Not that I'm aware of.
Q -- (inaudible) emphasis is on medical?
MS. TUTWILER: Not that I'm aware of.
Q Do you happen to know whether the death toll is
going up or down?
MS. TUTWILER: I don't know. It's obviously going up,
George. I don't believe it's what it was last week.
Q Maybe it was 2,000 last week?
MS. TUTWILER: No. I would characterize it -- this is
as of today. I would, from my own reading, have to characterize
it as each day goes by, which has been everyone's concern, these
people become weaker. I would characterize, without asking --
I'll be happy to go check my facts -- that it would be pretty
obvious, I believe, that it is probably getting worse.
Q If these people were moved into a plateau inside
---
MS. TUTWILER: Lower, is what I mean.
Q -- Iraq, that would amount, wouldn't it, to a safe
haven or a safe environment?
MS. TUTWILER: We've already addressed ourselves to
that a number of times. General Scowcroft did again yesterday.
There's no question in my mind that it is a de facto type of
safe haven. As you know, we have also asked the Iraqi
government that nothing interfere with these various
international relief agencies operating there in northern Iraq.
Q You're aware, as you drop supplies, you are not
just hitting refugees; you are also hitting the fighters that
are resisting the Iraqi government, are you not? If there is
heavy ground fighting reported over the weekend, in all
probability they have gotten food and shelter and help from the
air drops which the United States has been doing.
So, inadvertently, the U.S. is helping the Resistance
to try to overthrow the government of Saddam Hussein, are you
not?
MS. TUTWILER: The United States, as you know, has
never had as an objective or a goal the overthrow of Saddam
Hussein. The United States has made perfectly clear, as the
Secretary of State made clear to you, I believe, standing
outside the U.N. Mission in Geneva on Friday, that none of us
would shed any tears should the Iraqi people decide that they
would like to have a different leader.
As far as your other report, I'll be honest with you,
John, I have not heard that yet this morning, that somehow our
supplies are getting into the wrong hands. I don't know that.
Q That would be the wrong hands if they fell into
the hands of the Kurdish --
MS. TUTWILER: Are you telling me the Iraqi troops?
Q -- the Kurdish Resistance --
MS. TUTWILER: Of --
Q When you drop air supplies in their territory,
you're obviously not just feeding women and children that are
running for their lives. You're feeding fighters who have a
goal of overthrowing the government of Saddam Hussein. You are
helping the Resistance by feeding the refugees.
MS. TUTWILER: We are helping people, it's my
understanding, who are fleeing their villages, their towns,
based on, obviously, very real fears. There is one person who
has caused this fleeing and that is Saddam Hussein. People are
abandoning whole villages -- just up and leaving. You saw with
your own eyes -- you were there -- what they are fleeing into.
That only, in my mind, can translate into a horror and abject
fear to leave your home, to leave everything, to put yourself in
a situation that is almost indescribable that many of us saw
when we were there last week.
Q If you are feeding and assisting the Resistance,
so be it. Is that what you are saying?
MS. TUTWILER: If there is a hungary soldier, John,
that is walking along that road that we overflew, that is up in
those mountains, I do not believe that we are singling out men
who may be in the Resistance, who may have fought in a village,
etc., who are sitting on a mountain, freezing cold and no food
for themselves or for their family -- I'm not aware of such a
policy.
Q But if it allows them to fight another day, that's
just fine with the State Department; is that correct?
MS. TUTWILER: This is all your pushing of the
envelope. I'm trying to describe exactly what we are doing.
I'm not aware that we're making a distinction. You were there.
Q I'm not making a distinction. That's the point.
MS. TUTWILER: But can you imagine on the mountain site
where you and I were, how are you supposed to sort it out? You
saw. Do you know that when we were there, as we were told,
there were approximately 40,000 people. Two weeks before, there
had not been a single person. As of today, we believe there are
over 80,000 at the site where we were. Now how in the world
would you possibly sort it out? I personally saw a lot of men.
I don't know if they were armed. I don't know if they were in
the Resistance. But I don't think that we're up there saying,
"No, you can't have shelter and food and medicine."
Q But you're also not being naive about the fact
that you are helping the Resistance? You are helping the
Resistance, and I'm just trying to get a statement out of the
U.S. Government --
MS. TUTWILER: I understand what you're trying to do.
We are helping people who have fled their homes.
Q Margaret, does the United States -- you just
stated that one person caused all this and that's Saddam Hussein.
MS. TUTWILER: Correct.
Q Is this a war crime?
MS. TUTWILER: That, Alan, as you know, is something
that our government has discussed throughout this crisis over
the last nine months. I am unaware of any decision that the
United Nations took. As you know, it was not in the 25-page
resolution, the last resolution that just passed. As you know,
we have said that is something that we are willing to discuss
but it is not something that we have been actively moving on.
Q I didn't ask if you decided to move on it. I just
asked if it was a war crime. Let me rephrase it. Is it a
crime? Is it a crime?
MS. TUTWILER: It is criminal what has gone on inside
of this country. It is criminal, in my opinion, that one
leader, because of his own arrogance, would choose to put his
nation through what he has just put his nation through and
apparently continues to put his nation through.
Q So you agree it's a crime. And you also say --
and President Bush has said many times -- that this is a civil
war. Right? So this is a crime committed in a civil war. Is
it a war crime?
MS. TUTWILER: I don't have an international definition
for you, a legal definition, which is what you're asking me. I
will be happy to ask the lawyers if this is, indeed, a war
crime.
Q If this is not a war crime, what is?
MS. TUTWILER: I have stated what our policy has been
throughout concerning war crimes, war tribunals, etc. But I
want to be careful here because, as you know, under
international law there are very specific definitions of any
number of things, one of which is this. So I would rather
refrain from answering your question head-on until I have
checked with the lawyers.
Q If it's not a war crime, and you agree it is a
crime, do you think the criminals ought to be brought to account
for their crimes?
MS. TUTWILER: This is nothing but, Alan, seriously, an
indirect way of getting me right back into "Is the United States
going to pursue Saddam Hussein as a criminal? Are we going to
have a war tribunal? Are we going to try to try him on war
crimes?" I've answered it. Our policy hasn't changed.
Q Maybe you could state for us, for the record, why
the United States would not want to pursue these and all the
other crimes that he has committed? What are the reasons
against doing this?
MS. TUTWILER: We said, and we have continued for the
last nine months to work as a coalition. We have worked through
the United Nations. As I just pointed out, in the last
resolution that just passed -- it was 25 pages, I believe, in
length -- this item was not mentioned. I have to assume that
was on consensus by the majority of the nations who wrote the
document.
Q Margaret, the European Community this morning
voted to seek a war crimes trial for Saddam Hussein.
MS. TUTWILER: I saw that.
Q Does that affect the U.S. position?
MS. TUTWILER: I saw that briefly right before I
came out to the briefing, and it is obviously something that we
will want to take a look at. There was just, as I read, a
three-sentence wire. It did not say any specifics or what
exactly the literal proposal was. And this is something that
could well come up at Secretary Baker's meeting with the EC
Ministers on Wednesday.
Q They were members of the coalition. Wouldn't they
--
MS. TUTWILER: That they would bring up. Not the
that the Secretary would.
Q Since they were members of the coalition, would we
be inclined to support a position like that?
MS. TUTWILER: That get's me right back to Alan's
questions. That would obviously be a Presidential decision. I
am unaware of any change in our policy concerning this.
Q Was there a significant number of Kurds who stayed
behind in their villages? And do we know, if there are a
significant number, what has happened to them? Saddam keeps
saying that it is safe to return. Do we have any evidence one
way or another about what is happening there?
MS. TUTWILER: I don't know, Pat, how many, if
any, are back in their villages. I read one report, which I am
sure many of you have read, that some are deciding to give up on
the mountains and go back to the villages; but we, as of this
morning, don't have an accurate number on that.
Yes, Johanna.
Q On the Mideast, when we were last there Secretary
Baker said publicly -- you know, he cautioned journalists not to
rush to judgment, and privately we were told to resist immediate
gratification.
MS. TUTWILER: That's right.
Q I guess it comes down to, why is he rushing back?
MS. TUTWILER: That's your characterization of "rushing
back," not mine. (Laughter)
We could have stayed.
Q (Inaudible)
MS. TUTWILER: That's right. We could have stayed. We
could have left yesterday. We could have left today.
[MIddle East Peace Process: Discussion]
Q Then why this stately progress back to the Middle
East after such a long time gap since he was last there?
(Laughter)
MS. TUTWILER: It is that he and the President, as I
expressed, after discussing this this weekend and the Secretary
giving the President a full debrief, think that it is prudent to
return to the region to continue working this issue with the
various parties. And as we have said all along, none of us
knows how long the window of opportunity is going to exist and
you do not want to somehow inadvertently miss an opportunity
that may well be there. And so that is the reason it was
determined to go back to continue to work this in person, and
that is exactly what we are going to do.
Q Will the Secretary be going to Jordan?
MS. TUTWILER: That's under discussion right now.
Q Is this a "make or break" kind of trip? I mean,
is the Secretary going to keep --
MS. TUTWILER: No, no, no, no.
Q -- keep running off. (Laughter.)
MS. TUTWILER: I would never say yes.
Q Is he going to keep going to the Middle East every
two --
MS. TUTWILER: I don't know. I don't have a crystal
ball.
Q -- weeks if there is no -- I mean, there hasn't
been any real substantive move by any of the parties that a lot
of us can see. Is he going to want something now? He himself
has said that if the parties themselves don't want peace, he
can't do it.
MS. TUTWILER: I'm not going to set him up for those
types of odds. That wouldn't be how I operate. And I can't
tell you if he is going to make another trip or ten more trips
or 63 more trips. But I do know that he will continue to be
engaged, as he has said, as long as the parties themselves are
serious about trying to find a way to resolve this very
intractable problem. And he will continue to, as we said, act
as a catalyst.
He, as you point out, said that we cannot want peace in
the region more than the people who live there. We cannot
impose it from the outside. He and the President believe that
there is genuine, serious work being done right now on this
issue by the various parties, and he is going to continue to be
engaged as long as those are still the factors.
Q You said Jordan was under consideration.
MS. TUTWILER: Uh-hum.
Q Can you say what other Arab countries are under
consideration?
MS. TUTWILER: Why don't we just maybe do that
afterwards.
Q On the business of the trip --
MS. TUTWILER: Excuse me. The reason, George, is that
we are really in the process right now of notifying a lot of
governments, and it would just be inappropriate to say it now
before those are completed.
Q Since the Secretary left Israel, there have been
some very strong statements by some of the ministers, including
Minister Sharon --
MS. TUTWILER: Uh-hum.
Q --about continued settlement building and
prospects.
MS. TUTWILER: That's right.
Q Are those negative signals also an element in the
decision that he go back?
MS. TUTWILER: I can't say that anything that Minister
Sharon has said since we left Israel has anything to do with
Secretary Baker returning to Israel, no.
Q Well, the broader question is, the importance of
going back, is that important because of hope of possible
breakthrough or despair that the window is closing?
MS. TUTWILER: No. I think it is just as clear as I
have tried to state it -- that if you believe that the parties
are serious, that the parties are engaged, the most effective
way that most people communicate in something that is this
intractable, this difficult, is in person. And so he views, and
the President views, that it is important to go back, to take
advantage of staying engaged; to take advantage of this window
of opportunity that we have all addressed, including the parties
in the region, that has presented itself in the aftermath of the
Gulf crisis; and to see if you can make progress. And that is
what he is going to try to do.
Q That is a pretty good description of the housing
settlement problem -- intractable, difficult.
MS. TUTWILER: Uh-hum.
Q How come the Secretary doesn't feel it would be
helpful to see Mr. Sharon? When he goes to Israel, he has met
with Rabin. He has met with all sorts of people, not just the
Prime Minister. He has met with the Foreign Minister; he has
met with the Defense Minister. He stops in Geneva; he talks
with a political leader who represents about twelve percent of
the population right now.
Sharon represents a much stronger view in Israel.
MS. TUTWILER: Uh-hum.
Q And it seems to be a problem, this housing
problem.
Why doesn't he talk to Sharon about it?
MS. TUTWILER: To be honest with you, Barry, it has
never been raised either by us or by him; and I am unaware -- I
think he has been Secretary of State, what is it now? 28 months
-- that he has ever met with an Interior Minister or Housing
Minister in any country we have been to.
Q He met with the Interior Minister here.
MS. TUTWILER: He met Sharon here? I don't remember
that.
Q He's not the Interior Minister.
MS. TUTWILER: The Housing Minister.
Q But the Interior Minister in the last government
was Rabbi Perets, and I distinctly remember.
MS. TUTWILER: Well, your memory is better than mine.
Q You can check it up. I refer you to the record.
MS. TUTWILER: I'm sure you're correct. (laughter.)
Q He tends to meet in certain countries --
MS. TUTWILER: It's never come up.
Q -- a broad spectrum. It's never come up, but I
mean --
MS. TUTWILER: Either way. I mean, they have never
requested it and it has never come up on our side.
Q I have a hunch that the U.S. Government has the
authority to make it come up if they wanted it to --
MS. TUTWILER: I guess if we wanted it to, we could
request a meeting.
Q But there is no point to it?
MS. TUTWILER: I'm not going to sit here and prejudge
for Secretary of State Baker something that I'm not aware has
ever been raised to him, or ever thought about. So I can't tell
you, yes, he would do it.
Q Barry is asking why hasn't the Secretary thought
it important to meet with Sharon, since his policy is
inextricably linked with what Baker is trying to do in the
Middle East?
MS. TUTWILER: Because the Secretary of State deals
with the head of that government and -- you weren't on the trip,
but the others were -- he discussed this very issue, which you
would know, with the Prime Minister, with the Foreign Minister.
There is not a meeting that he has, and he is discussing it at
the head of state level. I don't find that that unusual.
Q There is some question whether the head of
government speaks to Sharon either. (Laughter.) Sharon seems
to be doing what he wants to do, and Shamir seems to be implying
that it is not his policy.
MS. TUTWILER: That's something I'm not going to get
into. That's an internal matter, and you would have to ask the
Israelis.
Q Margaret, this is a curiosity, though.
MS. TUTWILER: Yes, Alan.
Q When he is in Israel --
MS. TUTWILER: Excuse me?
Q When he is in Israel, why does he always meet with
the Prime Minister and the Foreign Minister and the Defense
Minister separately? After all, they are all in the same party,
and they are all in the same government. And this leads to a
kind of absurdity where you meet with the Prime Minister and
then Baker meets with the Foreign Minister to tell him what the
Prime Minister said. (Laughter.)
MS. TUTWILER: I don't find this that unusual.
Secretary Baker meets with many of his Foreign Ministers either
here or after a meeting with our head of state. I don't
understand. He does that all the time.
Q But when he goes to Israel, they are always
inevitably separate meetings. Does that reflect some kind of
disarray in --
MS. TUTWILER: He does it all over the world. I mean,
that's not that unusual. He meets for hours with the Foreign
Minister of the Soviet Union and on one day out of three days
goes and meets with the head of state.
Q I believe the Foreign Minister --
MS. TUTWILER: We do it all over the world.
Q But when he does that, the Foreign Minister is
always present.
MS. TUTWILER: Well, you could ask the Israelis. I
mean, it is not some specific request that we have put in that
we want to have meetings specifically structured a certain way.
Q What I'm getting at is, whose request is it?
MS. TUTWILER: I really don't know that level of
scheduling details. I'll be happy to try to noodle into it for
you. It's something that I have not spent time focusing on.
Q But to get back to Jim's question about
settlements, first of all, does the U.S. Government have any
response to the hard-line tone out of Israel the minute that
your plane in Israel left on settlements? And what's the status
of the $400 million? The Israelis yesterday reported that it
was once again being held up as some sort of punishment because
of this hard-liner.
MS. TUTWILER: My understanding, Jan, is that we
announced -- I believe it was on April 9 -- that that money had
gone; and I believe we told you that the Israeli government, on
March 28, just finished their negotiations or finalized it -- I
believe with the banks. And I believe the final AID technical
part of it was done April 9, but I'll be glad to check the
record for you.
[Cyprus: Meetings with Turkish-Cypriot Leader]
Q Margaret, Mr. Kimmitt is meeting with Rauf
Denktash, who is the so-called leader of the Turkish Republic of
Northern Cyprus. I understand that the Secretary is going to
meet briefly with him, too. That's highly unusual. Can you
tell us why?
MS. TUTWILER: You are correct on both points of his
meeting with him. As part of a private visit to Canada and the
United States, Mr. Denktash will meet with Under Secretary of
State Kimmitt, as you mentioned, and will call briefly on
Secretary of State Baker.
Mr. Denktash will be seen in his capacity as leader of
the Turkish-Cypriot community and as one of two equal
participants in the intercommunal negotiations conducted under
the auspices of the United Nations which seek a just and lasting
solution to the Cyprus problem.
In these discussions, we will urge Mr. Denktash to
participate constructively and imaginatively in the
intercommunal negotiations.
The discussions are intended as a contribution to this
process of dialogue. They do not imply a change in United
States policy towards Cyprus. The United States recognizes only
a single state of Cyprus and does not accept that there is or
can be an independent Turkish-Cypriot state on the island.
As we have stated in the past, the United States
deplores the division of Cyprus and actively supports the
efforts of the United Nations Secretary General to assist the
two Cypriot communities in reaching an agreement on a new
federated state of Cyprus that will be bi-zonal and bi-communal
in character.
Q Is this the first time a Secretary of State meets
with Mr. Denktash?
MS. TUTWILER: Is this the first time a Secretary of
State ever has?
Q Yes.
MS. TUTWILER: I don't know. I'll check for you.
Q Did you say that the visit was official or
private?
MS. TUTWILER: As I said, Mr. Denktash is on a private
visit to the United States and Canada.
Q Last week the U.S. asked the Soviets for their
assistance in -- for information on U.S. prisoners of war held
in that country. Can you tell me more about what motivated that
request and whether or not, in making it, this is a sort of U.S.
concession that POWs were taken into the Soviet Union during and
after the Korean and Vietnam wars?
MS. TUTWILER: I believe that Richard got this question
on Friday and that the Department posted an answer on Friday
afternoon. I don't have it with me, and I'd be happy to refer
you to the Press Office which, I am sure, has a copy of it.
[South Africa: EC Decision to Lift Sanctions]
Q Margaret, just one more on the EC. Will the
Secretary be discussing the South African sanctions? Do you
have any comment on what the EC did today regarding the
sanctions?
MS. TUTWILER: Again, I just briefly saw that. As you
know, our policy is longstanding, and the President has stated
it any number of times. I don't know of any change whatsoever
in the President's policy concerning lifting of the sanctions.
I don't know if that will come up at this meeting or not.
Q You sort of breezed over the U.S. / Iranian
contacts.
MS. TUTWILER: Uh-hum.
Q Can you be a little more specific? Are we, number
one, doing air drops along the Iranian border?
MS. TUTWILER: Not that I know of.
Q Or are we just limiting ourselves to around the
Turkish? Okay. I know that we have offered to help Iran with
its refugee problem. Is there any positive or negative response
from the Iranian government?
MS. TUTWILER: As you know, the Iranian government has
publicly, last week when we were on the road, asked for
international assistance. We have responded and said that we
want to be part of that assistance. We are going to be part of
that assistance, the details of which, John -- I checked on this
this morning -- are still being fleshed out.
For instance, how do you get United States supplies,
whatever they may be when they determine what they need, to this
area? Who is going to take it? Right now, these conversations
are going on. There have been no direct contacts between the
U.S. and the Iranian government. It is all being handled
through the Swiss, and obviously we are in constant contact with
the international relief organizations.
But there is nothing specific yet that I could tell you
that has been worked out.
Q Still on Iran, Iran's Foreign Minister is being
quoted as saying there are still 22 Iraqi war planes on its
territory. Does the U.S. have its own notion of how many Iraqi
planes remain there? Has it tried to do anything about it?
MS. TUTWILER: Have we tried to do anything about it?
You mean, have them returned?
Q Yes, like that's an example.
MS. TUTWILER: Return them to Iraq?
Q I say, can you tell us what you know about the
status of Iraqi warplanes in Iran?
MS. TUTWILER: My understanding is that Iraqi airplanes
are still in Iran, and I have not heard that the Iranians have
changed their policy --
Q Of holding onto them until the war is over?
MS. TUTWILER: -- of sending them back.
Q Okay.
[Iran: Article on Reagan Campaign
Manager/Hostages]
Q Margaret, also on Iran, have you seen the piece in
today's New York Times by Gary Sick, formerly of the National
Security Council, with what he considers to be possibly new
evidence of an October surprise in 1980? Have you seen it?
Have you any comment on it?
MS. TUTWILER: I will be honest with you. I saw the
headline. I haven't had time this morning to read it. And
Marlin responded to this question and said that it's the same
old rumors and -- I can't remember the other adjective Marlin
used -- that had been around for years. He had no comment on
it, so I know I don't.
Q Margaret, could I just clarify a point on the
figures that you gave for fatalities in the camps? Were you
referring only to the camps on the Turkish border?
MS. TUTWILER: Uh-hum, yes.
Q Okay.
MS. TUTWILER: I'm only referring to Turkey.
Q Margaret, are there any scheduled meetings this
week between Department officials and members of the Iraqi
opposition?
MS. TUTWILER: I didn't ask this morning. I'll be
happy to ask the Bureau if there are any such scheduled
meetings.
Q Can we try the START situation and the summit, and
I hope you won't shift us to the White House because this is --
MS. TUTWILER: I will.
Q Well, you shouldn't --
MS. TUTWILER: Marlin just answered it all this
morning.
Q Yeah, Marlin made no sense because -- (Laughter)
MS. TUTWILER: Now that's not true.
Q No, he made no sense in the sense that from this
building you folks have been saying -- and the Secretary of
State has been saying -- that the last summit was postponed
because you didn't have a START treaty and because there was a
war on. Now, is the START treaty a precondition or isn't it a
precondition? Are you zigging or zagging now?
MS. TUTWILER: To be honest with you, what I want to
do, Barry, because Marlin did answer these questions this
morning -- it is obviously a Presidential summit; it's a White
House summit; it's not a State Department summit -- is refer you
to how he answered the question on behalf of the President this
morning. I will be happy to talk to him after the briefing to
tell him that you are a little bit confused and see if I can get
a more direct --
Q I'm not confused. The Administration is changing
its stand --
MS. TUTWILER: -- a direct answer for you.
Q The Administration seems to be zigzagging without
admitting it is zigzagging, because when you folks here put out
a piece of paper saying why there is no summit -- or as the
Secretary at least explains it at the White House -- there were
two reasons. One was the war in Iraq and the START treaty
wasn't finished.
MS. TUTWILER: And I think that he had said we would
hope --
Q Hope to get it; hoped to have the summit by the
end of the first of the year.
MS. TUTWILER: As I remember his joint press conference
with the Foreign Minister at the White House, I remember the
word "hoped." I don't believe he said that it was locked in
concrete, must have. But I would like to just have the liberty
of checking the record.
Q No, no. You are getting it -- look. He said very
specifically, the summit was being postponed for two reasons.
MS. TUTWILER: I remember that.
Q It's unseemly to have a summit while there is a
war on, and the START treaty isn't ready. Then he said, "We
hope --
MS. TUTWILER: We would hope to make progress, right.
Q -- to be in a position to have the summit before
the end of the first half of the year.
MS. TUTWILER: That's right.
Q Okay. Now it seems the completion of a START
treaty is not a prerequisite to a summit. And I just want to
give you folks another chance to swing at that.
MS. TUTWILER: Okay. I would just like the chance to
call my good friend Marlin and check in with him. This is not
something that I spent a lot of time on last week when we were
in the Middle East, and I would just like the opportunity to
check. Carol?
Q Margaret, there are reports out of Moscow that the
Soviets have now apparently put the emigration law on a decided
backburner, and this had been -- or the United States had often
emphasized how important this was, not just because it was
connected to MFN and trade benefits, but also because the United
States thought this was important in terms of codification of
human rights in general. I was just wondering what your
reaction is?
MS. TUTWILER: I am not aware that they have done that.
Obviously I am aware that they have not yet passed their
emigration legislation, but to be honest, Carol, I don't know
where they are with it. I would just like to bring myself up to
date on where they are.
Q A senior parliamentarian apparently is now saying
that conservatives have actually delayed, tied it up.
MS. TUTWILER: I haven't heard about it. I'll ask for
you.
Q Margaret, this is perhaps something else you have
not had a chance to focus on, but Friday night the State
Department put out a statement by the President on foreign aid.
MS. TUTWILER: Uh-hum.
Q Proposed sweeping changes in foreign aid, perhaps
the most sweeping changes in thirty years.
MS. TUTWILER: Right.
Q And I just wondered what the rationale was for
putting it out at that hour.
MS. TUTWILER: I don't know. I wasn't here. Do you
know, Richard?
MR. BOUCHER: That's when it was ready.
MS. TUTWILER: That's when it was ready? I don't know.
I wasn't involved in it. I understand there was like a
four-page attachment, fact seat, or something that went with it.
I don't know, George. Was it put out here or at the White
House?
MR. BOUCHER: Here. The White House talked to the
wires and then we put out the background info.
MS. TUTWILER: Oh, okay. I don't know.
Q Margaret, give me one more chance on the Middle
East.
MS. TUTWILER: Okay.
Q The Administration keeps mentioning this window of
opportunity. Yesterday General Scowcroft described it as a
narrow window of opportunity. Is the window of opportunity
closing, and if so, why?
MS. TUTWILER: I just can't answer that, Jim. We have
always said that a window of opportunity exists; and, to be
honest with you, in almost every capital we have visited the
same sentiments have been expressed privately and publicly to
the Secretary of State.
None of us -- and this has also been stated -- knows
how long this opportunity is going to exist. I just don't have
an ability to look into the future and say it is going to end
on, you know, May 3. I don't know. But the belief is that the
window of opportunity is still there; and they want to make sure
that we continue to take advantage of it, have left no stone
unturned, and have genuinely worked honestly and seriously with
the parties in the region to see if you can make progress. And
that is what he is going to continue to do until I guess you get
to a time, as he has said, when the parties themselves are no
longer interested. Then, in my mind, you would say the window
closed.
Q Margaret, when you said the President and the
Secretary are convinced that all parties are taking a serious
approach --
MS. TUTWILER: I said they believed.
Q Are you referring just to the willingness to join
in a peace conference or anything beyond that, and, if so, can
you describe what that is?
MS. TUTWILER: No. They believe that the parties are
serious and are dealing with this issue, the whole issue. There
is not just one particular part they have peeled off and said
this one everyone is serious about and this one they are not.
As you know, much of the substance of these discussions
has not been out in the public. I would envision that that will
remain to be the case. Much of it he has put out, as have other
officials. So you are well aware of what others think about the
various parts that they have talked about publicly; but there is
a belief, I believe also, and I cannot speak for others, on
behalf of the others he has met with that everyone is serious,
and we'll just have to just see how it evolves, how it goes.
Q Margaret, President Gorbachev will visit tomorrow
in Japan. Could you give us any article today about his visit?
MS. TUTWILER: Could I give you what?
Q President Gorbachev will visit Japan.
MS. TUTWILER: I understand that.
Q So could you give us any article today about this,
about his visiting Japan, any comments?
MS. TUTWILER: An outlook on his visit?
Q Yes.
MS. TUTWILER: I'm not sure that we have an outlook on
his visit to Japan. If you are concerning yourself with the
Northern Territories, our policy is well known on that and has
been articulated from this podium many times. But concerning
his visit to Japan, or any type of statement -- I think his
visit just begins tomorrow, doesn't it -- I'm not sure that we
will be in a position to do that for you. That's kind of highly
unusual for us. But I will check on it for you.
Q Thank you.
(The briefing concluded at 1:13 p.m.)